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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 27, 2017 8:44:34 GMT -8
The recent Otani news requires clarification and a Constitutional ammendment in regards to the way 2-way players (players who both pitch and serve as a non-pitcher hitter) function in the Juiced Ball League.
I am not yet certain of Fantrax's options in regards to treating 2 way players but assuming that they will support all options the JBL will be treating them as such:
2-way players will be owned by a single team, paid a single salary, and treated in the spreadsheets the same as a 1-way player. 2-way players will be drafted/signed, traded, and cut the same as a 1-way player.
2-way players will have two "player cards" in Fantrax: one for offensive production and another for pitching production. Both can be interted into a team's scoring lineup in any scoring period. Offensive stats that are accumulated by the pitcher while hitting as the pitcher in an NL park will not be accumulated. The offensive "player card" will accumulate offensive stats for the 2-way player when he is not hitting as the pitcher. --- this is my preferred rule set, but obviously subject to change as Fantrax allows. Will be updated.
Regarding Otani specifically, the MiLFA draft eligibility rules state the following. Because Otani is 23 years old he is not eligible for the MiLFA draft and instead will be eligible for Offseason Free Agency if he signs prior to 2/5/17, and Inseason Free Agency beginning 3/22/17 if he signs with a club after 2/5/17.
- In-Season Free Agency (see also Rule 9.2): If an Int'l Free Agent signs with an MLB team during the regular JBL season AND is placed on the MLB 25-man roster (or reached the 130AB/50IP rookie thresholds) then he is eligible to be posted for In-Season Free Agency bidding/signing. (Ex. Rusney Castillo, age 27, was signed in 8/14 but was not on the MLB 25 man roster until 9/17/14, which was after the JBL regular season, so he was only eligible for the Off-Season Free Agency).
- Off-Season Free Agency (see also Rule 9.3 and 9.5): To be eligible to be posted in Off-Season Free Agency, an Int'l Free Agent must (1) be signed by an MLB team prior to the start of the final round of Off-Season Free Agency and (2) be at least 23 years of age at the time signed by the MLB team (in other words, unsigned Int'l Free Agents cannot be posted). If the player is signed once a round has started, he cannot be posted until the start of the next round. If he signs too late to be posted for Off-Season Free Agency then he becomes eligible for In-Season Free Agency provided he meets the MLB 25-man roster requirement. (Ex. Yasmany Tomas was signed in 11/14 at age 24, so he was eligible for Off-Season Free Agency).
If the Int'l Free Agent is not yet 23 years old when signed, he becomes eligible for In-Season Free Agency if/when he meets the MLB 25-man roster requirement; otherwise he is eligible to be selected in the next Minor League Free Agent Draft.
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Post by Detroit Tigers (Matt) on Nov 27, 2017 9:46:26 GMT -8
Is it otani's age that exempts him from the MLiB draft, or because if he signs in the MLB he will immediately be put on a MLB 25 man roster?
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 27, 2017 9:51:05 GMT -8
Age, as I'm not sure it's a lock that he is put straight on the 25
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 10:42:10 GMT -8
Probably not a lock since he is asking about teams minor league programs.
How will you manage not scoring hitting stats during starts if you have 2 player cards? Force the team to bench the hitter during games he is pitching?
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 27, 2017 10:58:46 GMT -8
Probably not a lock since he is asking about teams minor league programs. How will you manage not scoring hitting stats during starts if you have 2 player cards? Force the team to bench the hitter during games he is pitching? That I do not know yet. It may be an impossibility, but I figured I'd post what my preference is
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Post by Philadelphia Phillies (Paul) on Nov 27, 2017 17:48:56 GMT -8
If Ohtani does get 2 player cards in Fantrax, would the team that rosters him be given a special roster exemption to carry 41 "players"? Or would the extra player card still count against the 40-man roster like 2 players?
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Post by Los Angeles Dodgers (Jon) on Nov 27, 2017 18:35:45 GMT -8
I’m a little confused why Otani wouldn’t be eligible for the minor league draft. Is every minor leaguer 23 or older considered a free agent or only if you’re born in another country? It seems this must be a rule change since last year. As an example, Jose Miguel Fernandez was drafted last year and he was 28 on draft day. Why the change?
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Post by Seattle Mariners (Robin) on Nov 27, 2017 19:08:57 GMT -8
I was under the impression Ohtani was eligible for the draft as well, depending on when he signs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 19:15:35 GMT -8
As much as I would love to bid on Ohtani, I took the rules to be that if he signed with a team prior to the start of MiLBFA draft, he qualified for it.
"To be eligible for the MiLFA Draft, an Int'l Free Agent must be in an MLB team minor league system prior to the start of the MiLFA Draft (ie. he must be signed prior to the start of the draft). Notwithstanding the prior sentence, a player meeting either the Off-Season or In-Season Free Agency requirements can be posted for the applicable free agency period." The requirements are passing the rookie requirements, which he would not do before the season started. However, since he is 23, if he was signed after the start of the MiLBFA draft, he would be eligible offseason free agency, assuming he was signed before the final round.
That is just my two cents though and my interpretation of the rules as written.
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Post by Seattle Mariners (Robin) on Nov 27, 2017 19:27:01 GMT -8
That's how I interpret the rule as well. Also I am confused on where the hang up is on this. Is it because the rule states the player eligible for Free Agency if he is on the 25 man roster? If this is the case, it doesn't make much sense because when he signs, the team does not have to specify if he is on the 25 man roster or not, he will be added to the 40 man and they will have until opening day to decide on adding him to the 25 man.
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Post by Philadelphia Phillies (Paul) on Nov 27, 2017 19:29:18 GMT -8
For whatever it's worth, my interpretation of the rules is done in linear order of the stated rules. (A previous interpretation of mine was incorrect, so take it for what it's worth.)
1. Ohtani cannot qualify for rule 1 (in 2018) because the approved posting system ends well before our regular season begins, therefore, he will not be eligible for in-season free agency in 2018 (unless he signs an MLB contract but remains unsigned by a JBL team).
2. Ohtani could qualify for rule 2 because he is already 23 years old AND likely to sign prior the commencement of the final round of offseason free agency, thereby making him eligible for our offseason free agency.
3. Ohtani does not qualify for the MiLBFA draft because he is already 23.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 19:40:39 GMT -8
I’m a little confused why Otani wouldn’t be eligible for the minor league draft. Is every minor leaguer 23 or older considered a free agent or only if you’re born in another country? It seems this must be a rule change since last year. As an example, Jose Miguel Fernandez was drafted last year and he was 28 on draft day. Why the change? My guess is - and it's just a guess since I wasn't here from the beginning last year and I also didn't realize Otani wouldn't be eligible for the MiLB draft - is that international FA's have an age limit on MiLB eligibility since they're generally professional players from Japan/etc by the age of 23+ and probably aren't going to come over if they aren't likely to play in the bigs anyway, while anyone who's already in the minors here and is 23+ clearly isn't professional yet, if they ever do make it to the bigs.
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 27, 2017 20:50:15 GMT -8
Regarding Jon's post, this isn't a rule change since last year's opening season of the JBL. The key difference between Jose Miguel Fernandez and Otani was that Fernandez was available in the Initial Minor League Draft, and this January's draft is the first Minor League Free Agent Draft. That Initial Draft was open to all players currently in a minor league system with less than 130 AB / 50 IP. The MiLFA draft is a little more selective - with the motivation behind this exactly as Hasan guessed - since older international free agents are typically ready to hit the big leagues right away.
Of course, I never believed that such a potentially impactful international free agent would come to the MLB, so I never really went through the full thought experiment prior to repurposing this rule set for use in my own league. However after review, making Otani available to the highest bidder seems like the fairest way to deal with his arrival in my eyes, with the added bonus that the rules don't need amendment.
I do agree that this requires at least an example in the Constitution to help clarify the language. I'll get to that soon.
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Post by Los Angeles Dodgers (Jon) on Nov 28, 2017 3:47:26 GMT -8
For a player to be a free agent, they should have to be signed to a major league contract. There is nothing differentiating Otani from any other 23 year old minor leaguer except that he’s really good. Players should be treated as minor leaguers unless they sign an MLB contract. In fact, it appears to me the rule was written to be this way, as the age for IFAs to sign unrestricted used to be 23. Now that it is 25, we leave the rule open to interpretation. Taking the best minor league free agent and making him available to all teams isn’t good for parity in this league. I guess I’ll just dwell at the bottom all year and hope that next years best minor leaguer is 22 or from the US.
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 28, 2017 6:32:09 GMT -8
For a player to be a free agent, they should have to be signed to a major league contract. There is nothing differentiating Otani from any other 23 year old minor leaguer except that he’s really good. Players should be treated as minor leaguers unless they sign an MLB contract. In fact, it appears to me the rule was written to be this way, as the age for IFAs to sign unrestricted used to be 23. Now that it is 25, we leave the rule open to interpretation. Taking the best minor league free agent and making him available to all teams isn’t good for parity in this league. I guess I’ll just dwell at the bottom all year and hope that next years best minor leaguer is 22 or from the US. First of all this may all be moot as Otani might sigh a major league contract prior to the start of our MILFA draft. In my mind Otani is significantly different than the average 23 year old minor league free agent as he's much more of a known quantity. I'm not sure where you're getting the 25 age limit from in our constitution, but these rules have never been changed since the league's inception in January of last offseason. I understand that might be a little frustrated if you believed that the Dodgers you agreed to take over would be gaining Otani, and I apologize for not providing clarification on this sooner. However I have done a lot of work to revise these rules in other areas to ensure that rebuilding phases don't last countless years, and instead allow a franchise to be turned around in 2-3. If you don't feel like rebuilding for that long I completely understand if you decide that this league isn't for you.
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Post by Philadelphia Phillies (Paul) on Nov 28, 2017 7:17:17 GMT -8
For a player to be a free agent, they should have to be signed to a major league contract. There is nothing differentiating Otani from any other 23 year old minor leaguer except that he’s really good. Players should be treated as minor leaguers unless they sign an MLB contract. In fact, it appears to me the rule was written to be this way, as the age for IFAs to sign unrestricted used to be 23. Now that it is 25, we leave the rule open to interpretation. Taking the best minor league free agent and making him available to all teams isn’t good for parity in this league. I guess I’ll just dwell at the bottom all year and hope that next years best minor leaguer is 22 or from the US. Personally, I don't care how he's handled - I don't expect that I would win a (likely exhorbitant) bid and doubtful I acquire pick 1.1 to select him in a draft. Although, if I already owned 1.1, Ohtani would be one of two front-runners for that selection. The way I see it, free agency makes the most sense. A career minor leaguer that never sniffs an MLB appearance becomes a free agent after their initial contract and/or Rule 5 draft (roughly between age 21-24). At that point, minor leaguers are free to sign with any organization for another contract. The Rule 5 draft forces MLB teams to begin paying those guys real money or let the player go find their own money/best situation. And if MLB (and all affiliated parties) have agreed that this kid is unique enough to grandfather in the old posting system for the sole purpose of allowing his NPB team to post/release him to MLB, as an IFA that can sign anywhere he wishes vs. a draftee whose rights are owned by one team for 4-5 years, it seems - to me - to further the idea that free agency makes the most sense. While Ohtani isn't equivalent to a career minor leaguer that hasn't won a major league job yet, he is equivalent to the minor leaguer that has played professional baseball at a high level and deserves to be compensated at the highest level. Just my penny and a half.
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Post by Detroit Tigers (Matt) on Nov 28, 2017 7:55:27 GMT -8
This is sort of off topic from the Otani half of this conversation, but I have a question. Does the player have to be in the MLB minors to be draft eligible? Take a guy like Lane Adams for ATL, he currently has 112 MLB At Bats (under the rookie limits) but! for whatever reason is on ATL's 40 Man Roster. Is he eligible to be taken in the MLiB Draft?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2017 9:51:45 GMT -8
@ the Tigers, I think so because he did not meet his rookie eligiblity limits.
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Post by Los Angeles Dodgers (Jon) on Nov 28, 2017 13:55:51 GMT -8
So all minor league players not on a teams roster and not named Otani are eligible for the minor league draft. Is this correct or am I missing something else?
The 25 year old reference was to MLB rules, not our constitution. In past years a 23 year old (of Otanis ability) would have been signed to an MLB contract.
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 28, 2017 13:58:02 GMT -8
I will be providing guidance on MILFA draft eligibility in the coming weeks. I hadn't anticipated this Otani discussion would have led us down that path.
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Post by Philadelphia Phillies (Paul) on Nov 28, 2017 17:18:41 GMT -8
The 25/6 rule (25 years old AND 6 years of foreign professional experience) is currently in effect - and also applies to Ohtani. This is why he can't be offered a regular MLB free agent contract which would likely pay him a boatload of money.
If Ohtani could sign (different from the posting agreement) under the previous IFA signing rules of 23/5 (23 years old AND 5 years of foreign professional experience), teams could give him whatever he wants since he is 23 already with 5 years in NPB.
Given that, it would be reasonable to say that our constitution should reflect the new 25/6 IFA rules instead of the previous 23/5 IFA rules. If that were the case, then Ohtani would only be eligible for our MiLBFA draft IF he were assigned to a MiLB team immediately following his signing - which would all have to be completed prior the start of the draft. Call me a skeptic/cynic but I just don't think Ohtani will see any minor league time this coming season unless he's on a rehab assignment.
If Ohtani was not assigned to a MiLB team and ended up being added directly to the 25-man (or 40-man), even with a rule change affecting our IFA rules, he would only become eligible for in-season free agency.
All in all, if one believes Ohtani will be assigned to a minor league team upon signing, then this could definitely impact our MiLBFA draft - if we also changed our IFA rules.
However, if one is in the school of thought that Ohtani will debut as a major leaguer without ever being assigned to a major league team, then a change to our IFA rules would only impact whether he's available for offseason free agency or we have to wait for in-season free agency.
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Nov 28, 2017 21:06:12 GMT -8
I wasn't aware that the MLB rules had changed from the 23/6 configuration to a 25/6 configuration.
Honestly my objectives with this rule are: 1. Have players that should be immediate MLB players be eligible for free agency 2. Have international signings that will be transferred to the minors before seeing MLB time be eligible for the MiLFA draft in the offseason following their signing 3. Keep interpretation of the rules as simple as possible 4. Keep determination of player eligibility ahead of the mid-January MiLFA draft date
I don't see a need for any revision to the intent of the rule, other than a better description of the rules in the Constitution. If someone is willing to volunteer to take a crack at a better rule structure that follows my objective above please go ahead and PM me. I've got a bit too much on my plate between work and league activities ramping up right now to take this on.
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Post by Detroit Tigers (Matt) on Dec 7, 2017 12:36:15 GMT -8
I just want to make sure of something while I am planning my immediate future's strategy. So to be eligible to be taken in the MLIB Draft a player must be:
1. In an MLB's system (not just on a 40 man roster)
2. Not exceed the career rookie limits
3. Under 23 years of age
Those are all correct right?
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Post by Seattle Mariners (Robin) on Dec 7, 2017 12:41:14 GMT -8
I believe that is correct, except the 23 years old part. I think that the Ohtani ruling is a specific special case. To my knowledge all untaken current minor leaguers (less then 130 abs and 50 IP) are eligible for the MiLB draft.
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Jan 12, 2018 11:41:31 GMT -8
I owe the league a final decision prior to this weekend:
Otani will not be eligible for the MiLFA draft, and is eligible for free agency.
I haven't found an official Fantrax announcement yet but have seen multiple online sources claim that Fantrax will have Otani as an SP and UT to begin the season. If he obtains some offensive position eligibility (OF) during the season he will also qualify as that offensive position, but Otani can only be slotted into a single offensive or pitching slot per scoring period. This means that in our weekly format you can choose to start him as a pitcher or hitter (accumulating hitting stats that he obtains while hitting from any position except SP or RP), but not both.
This is the best information I have at the moment, but could be subject to change until I can find an official announcement from Fantrax.
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Post by Philadelphia Phillies (Paul) on Jan 12, 2018 16:12:25 GMT -8
I haven't found an official Fantrax announcement yet but have seen multiple online sources claim that Fantrax will have Otani as an SP and UT to begin the season. Not sure if you're aware of this or not - but even if Fantrax does not set dual eligibility (SP and DH/UT), the commissioner can override the system defaults and assign any positions to him prior to the season starting.
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Post by Chicago Cubs (Curtis) on Jan 12, 2018 16:23:25 GMT -8
I was not aware of that, but I see that he is currently listed at SP and UT. If they reverse that I will over ride
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